tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post6121393282458153525..comments2023-08-12T03:35:25.761-04:00Comments on Apotheosis of the Invisible City: Medieval Demographics Done RIGHTRavenswinghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15326042326261485786noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-30480445599968701432020-05-12T21:15:36.623-04:002020-05-12T21:15:36.623-04:00Which is a shame -- S. John having a heavily laden...Which is a shame -- S. John having a heavily laden site with many true and useful gems like his Big List of RPG Plots -- but fear not, the Wayback Machine rides to our rescue. For instance: https://web.archive.org/web/20070706202036/https://www.io.com/~sjohn/plots.htmRavenswinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15326042326261485786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-3554377286409259482020-05-11T16:22:27.297-04:002020-05-11T16:22:27.297-04:00So that's where the bit about the spices came ...So that's where the bit about the spices came from!<br /><br />Because yeah, the peasants had preserved food (smoked sausages, dried fish, etc.), and the nobility had fresh food (hunting wasn't just for fun, plus lots of livestock, and salted or dried meat, at least for the servants) so nobody was in fact eating spoiled food. The people who could afford spices *definitely* weren't eating spoiled food. What they were eating was food "seethed" into tastelessness, which needed spices to supply the flavor that had been cooked out of it. <br /><br />Also, if rotten meat is what you're used to, you wouldn't need to cover up the taste. See: muktuk. Or, for that matter, cheese. As I type this, I'm noshing on fermented milk; the container is labeled "yogurt".Worldwalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11090197651433328167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-62880334473595728472020-01-10T17:21:05.484-05:002020-01-10T17:21:05.484-05:00Thank you very much for this write up. I found it ...Thank you very much for this write up. I found it very useful. even after the original you are adressing has more or less vanished from the web.Glumboschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09955483262887634646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-9546407494994947392019-07-29T05:34:41.529-04:002019-07-29T05:34:41.529-04:00Well, sure. Drummond wasn't the first would-b...Well, sure. Drummond wasn't the first would-be historian to imagine that all ages, times and climes worked from the shibboleths and paradigms of his own time.Ravenswinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15326042326261485786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-32305735350055303422019-07-29T02:06:49.821-04:002019-07-29T02:06:49.821-04:00At least Ross actively tells you to fiddle with st...At least Ross actively tells you to fiddle with stuff to reflect your needs for the kingdom, so that's what I do, lol.<br /><br />It always baffled me on how the "people used spices to disguise spoiled meat" myth got started until I found out this article ( http://medievalcookery.com/notes/drummond.pdf ) stating that the misconception started with Jack Drummond in 1912, a chemist who clearly didn't know how to cook ANYTHING, wasn't a known historian, and made a lot of weird assumptions about medieval folks on top of it.<br /><br />And he accidentally counters his own spoiled-meat argument right in his book. Like, wow, man.Jamie Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02209262216110211643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-14354595048957637962019-07-26T00:57:03.997-04:002019-07-26T00:57:03.997-04:00Yep. The large waterskins I've seen pictures ...Yep. The large waterskins I've seen pictures of watercarriers lug seem far more aimed at street vending -- getcher cup o' fresh water, one sinver the mug! -- than in supplying the water needs of a household.<br /><br />Life in a Medieval City is fifty years old now, and yep, the Gieses' research hasn't aged well. The "spices" business is definitely one that failed the common sense test from multiple angles: what, the expensive imported spices the peasantry couldn't afford? The peasant diet that was heavily vegetable- and fish-based in the first place?<br /><br />It's not as if they had excuses, either. They were contemporaries of historians like Braudel, Lopez, Raymond and Pounds, who were not afraid to admit what they didn't know and distinguish between facts, conjectures and wild-ass guesses.Ravenswinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15326042326261485786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-36100639604362863732019-07-25T22:52:33.891-04:002019-07-25T22:52:33.891-04:00I always figured that the "Medieval Demograph...I always figured that the "Medieval Demographics Made Easy" article had some pretty strange/averaged numbers, from the "how many castles" figure (even Wales has FIVE HUNDRED surviving castles) to the number of water-carriers. (WATER IS HEAVY! There's no way a single water-carrier, or even their family and a wagon can supply a huge village of 850 people!).<br /><br />Also, having bought Gies' "Life in a Medieval Castle," I distinctly remember thinking some of the info must be outdated--they mentioned the "fact" of medieval peasants being forced to eat rotten food that they disguised with spices, so I'm taking most of their stuff with a grain of salt now.Jamie Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02209262216110211643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-83963662314258835592018-04-16T14:26:23.494-04:002018-04-16T14:26:23.494-04:00Sure. Me being a realism bug isn't even reall...Sure. Me being a realism bug isn't even really "you must slavishly follow how life looked in 13rd century western Europe." It's that a GM who seeks to replicate medieval life needs to take into account the ramifications of any major change that's made.Ravenswinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15326042326261485786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-21233305616910544242018-04-14T10:03:37.287-04:002018-04-14T10:03:37.287-04:00You could also have a monarch who isn't keen o...You could also have a monarch who isn't keen on them having their own great fortresses but due to the fact that he or she doesn't actually control most of the country can't stop them though they might try monk2024https://www.blogger.com/profile/17912603234012238598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-2100899748439440122018-03-02T09:14:49.867-05:002018-03-02T09:14:49.867-05:00Mm, I know this is coming in late, but on rereadin...Mm, I know this is coming in late, but on rereading your comment, I've some thoughts that other readers of this post might like.<br /><br />While I’ve mentioned how variable “medieval” is as a concept, pertaining to economics, a business listing isn’t too offbase. Blacksmiths, millers, potters are there in the 11th century and the 14th alike, and they do pretty much the same things, and you need roughly as many per capita, and that holds pretty much true for Charing Cross as well as Coucy or Chelmno. If a border region becomes a no-man’s land, the businesses will up and move. If the queen names Newtown the imperial capital, businesses will move there. I’m comfortable with my business lists.<br /><br />But there’s no way in hell I’d ever make a “There are X castles per Y population” statement. There are just too many variables. How secure are your borders? How large is your nation? – Imperial Rome, for instance, wasn’t throwing up too many fortifications in Italy or Egypt or Spain. Do you have a strong monarch (who’ll not be keen on her nobles having their own private fortresses) or a weak one (who can’t prevent them from doing so)? Is the infrastructure there to build them – the materials, the money, the labor force?<br /><br />And the key wrench in the works: stone fortifications last a long, long time. Krak des Chevaliers was built nearly 900 years ago, and was used in warfare as late as 2014. It’s likely (and in some cases certain) that the family that built a fortification is long extinct, the border’s long since shifted, the very nation it was built in no longer exists, the infrastructure needed to maintain it has eroded, the technology – magical or mundane – has made it obsolete ... and it may not even be occupied any more. (How many of those “X castles per Y population” tables take into account ruined castles?)<br /><br />When all is said and done, a few too many gamers who put out alleged "guides" are more interested with getting something into print than in getting it *right*, with the least amount of effort and research as they can manage.Ravenswinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15326042326261485786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-7664731032166221632014-09-06T07:18:14.094-04:002014-09-06T07:18:14.094-04:00Thank you kindly! I admit my own numbers aren'...Thank you kindly! I admit my own numbers aren't a be-all and end-all either, however much better researched ... and I think I'll amend the second MD post to say why!Ravenswinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15326042326261485786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-4956579914184379792014-09-05T22:11:52.892-04:002014-09-05T22:11:52.892-04:00Thank you for this post and for demographics deux....Thank you for this post and for demographics deux. I enjoyed Ross's work, if only for the list of occupations. But his numbers never worked for my campaign, so I used it as a source. I appreciate your better set of researched numbers, along with the academic critique of the Paris list. Daddy's Cookin'https://www.blogger.com/profile/09037449822665446358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-35450107551142790482013-11-21T15:49:19.729-05:002013-11-21T15:49:19.729-05:00The easy accumulation of items takes away from the...The easy accumulation of items takes away from the game, being able to buy a plate mail just off the rack, which fits takes away from the achievement of having earned the ability to buy it. <br /><br />I know Gurps seemed to have a better stab at how things relate to each other is cost, but is there any system which had a decent go at it. <br /><br />it really detracts from the game if youre player loot another 80,000 GP from a dungeon, and use it to hire 1,000 guards etc. it takes a lot more work on the DM's behalf to rewrite a system. We couldnt have been the only players out there who asked these questions and wanted to do other things except clear out another Dungeon and add more loot to the pile. <br /><br />Dáithíhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09865742978113853749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-27045679968280880282013-11-20T22:54:59.649-05:002013-11-20T22:54:59.649-05:00Well ... D&D doesn't -- and never actually...Well ... D&D doesn't -- and never actually has, their propaganda notwithstanding -- seek to be an accurate emulation of low-tech life. It seeks to make things fun for PCs. What D&D players seem to find fun is to have goods-on-demand, to have instant buyers (and at least fair market value) for their loot, and for these things to hold true no matter how small the community is.<br /><br />And that's fine, of course. Where my hackles go up is when they pretend this is anything more than a game fiat.Ravenswinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15326042326261485786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-41061521998851628932013-11-20T16:57:36.171-05:002013-11-20T16:57:36.171-05:00it doesn't have to be spot on accurate , just ...it doesn't have to be spot on accurate , just not so glaringly wrong. <br />There are so many games which the core economics just seem to be made up on a whim, but also include massive inconsistency. <br /><br />One example which springs to mind is AD&D birthright world, where given characters were supposed to be running a domain youd think some thought would go in to how a kingdom would be run.<br /><br />A kingdom would generate 20-40 Gold bars a year in tax, a gold bar was worth 2,000 gold pieces , so 40,000- to 80,000 gold pieces a year to rule a kingdom, doesnt seem like much for a vast kingdom.<br /><br />seems even less when it costs 4 gold bars (8,000 gp) to raise , train and equip a unit of 200 soldiers, thats 40gp each, and the suit of half plate they are supposedly equipped with cost 300 gp. Now unless your players are a complete bunch of morons they will notice this.<br /><br />Dáithí (cant remember how to log back in :) ) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8655963161146124083.post-56577196612100662532013-11-14T18:05:57.837-05:002013-11-14T18:05:57.837-05:00Ive been using a companion to Britain in the late ...Ive been using a companion to Britain in the late middles ages and life in a medieval barony to try and come up with a more realsitic demographics and economy. <br /> The bit they did on Castles is WAY OFF as well, a country of 1.4 million would have 35 fortified dwellings of which 22 were in occupation ??? <br /><br />there 1,400 known castes in England. Towers houses and castles are common enough sight in my part of Ireland that they don't elicit much notice. <br /><br />they must have used the number for fortified places around Paris , Densely populated and extrapolated by the rest of the population ? Dáithíhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09865742978113853749noreply@blogger.com